An African President's Daughter, Raised In North Korea - Monica Macias (Interview)
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17,462 views Oct 31, 2023 The Why with James Hsu
Monica Macias is the daughter of Equatorial Guinea's first president, Francisco Macias. She was raised in North Korea by Kim Il Sung.
Monica's new book, "Black Girl from Pyongyang," chronicles her childhood in North Korea and subsequent attempts to understand her father's complicated legacy.
0:00:00 intro
0:01:01 who is Monica Macias?
0:10:10 how Monica views her current identity
0:14:02 growing up in North Korea during its economic rise
0:18:27 Monica's relationship with Kim Il Sung
0:23:19 on North Korea - "one single narrative is divisive"
0:35:18 on the role of privilege in interpreting reality
0:43:53 the journey to uncover her father's true legacy
0:59:53 Monica's next book is about her father
1:02:36 Monica's fondest memory of her father
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Monica Macias
Equatoguinean author (born 1972)
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intro
welcome to the Y with James sue my guest this week is Monica masius Monica is the
daughter of Equatorial guine first president Francisco masus and was
actually raised in North Korea by none other than Kim ILS the leader of North
Korea she's got a new book out called black girl from pyang yyang in which she Chronicles this entire journey and later
attempts to understand her father's complicated Legacy we're going to touch on all of
Monica's past what she's learned about herself the nature of reality privilege
historical context and trying to understand different cultures it is in my opinion quite a
nuanced conversation and it's my pleasure to bring it to you today on the
why with James Sue
who is Monica Macias?
who is Monica masas so I will begin with my name full
name because it is the is the combination of the European name Christian and then I have African name
and my surnames so my name is Monica meaning Mafia Spang and uh I was born in a a very
small country in western Africa Western central Africa called Equatorial Guinea
it was um Spanish Colonial to Colony to
during um 200 years until
1968 when uh the country gained the independence from Spain and my father
was the first president of that country so my father was the person uh um who won the election
legitimate president first president who signed the independent declaration back
plan and uh however I have another father as a politician who is a who was
North Korean um founder and leader
kimil he is the person who raised me who raised me up and uh look up to me when I
was young so I was sent to study with my siblings in North Korea in 199
1979 and now you might ask you might wonder why PE why my father would send
us to North Korea so far in a North Asian country to study from from uh
Central West Africa so to understand that I need to give you a bit of the
uh uh background historical event what
happened back then so in 60 we are talking about uh we need to have a amount that's
it was the the time when many African country was getting independent from
their colonizers European colonizers so gu like I said earlier was one of them
and uh to make very short the long story geni uh the relationship between Guinea
and Spain was not good it was really it was getting
deteriorated day by day I would say for instance Spain uh tried to kill my
father they they organized A Kar and tried to F uh kill my father in just
three months after the independence because my father was not the candidate
they wanted because my father was a nationalist and my father was to look after the uh equator ginian interest
rather than um Spanish interest so they tried to kill him they failed and that
was the start point of breaking the relationship was really very bad so at the same time
that's the decolonization the context I'm giving you in the context um guine
woods and another another factor to take account is the is when the uh Cold War
was starting so and we all understand the Cold War was the a competition
between uh the Western Country and communist block countries so uh when
when the independence in Africa the colonization started in the aftermath of
the colonization um so Western countries the relationship
between Western countries and African countries was so bad it wasn't only equator many countries in Africa because
the colonization meant so badly because meant very exploitation of those
countries by colon by these Western countries so obviously the relationship
and still until now is not good and uh at the same time these uh communist
block countries was reaching out an African country with help and what those
country were Cuba Russia China and North Korea was one of them so North Korea
also was reaching out in African country to help with them and that's how my
father got to relation with between um he and then decided to send us
because when uh Spain gave Independence to guinea they left
overnight it's like you can't leave a country that you have been um
exploding explode not only exploting buts practically black people have no
right for study for any whatsoever so they left over the night and Country had
had nothing no institution proper uh education institution was left in the
country so uh so my father decided to send young ginans and of uh to those
countries he sent to Russia China and North Korea to study many people and we
we were one of them he start he decided to send us to North Korea with with a
kimlong and uh that's the reason I was s to North Korea with a
six with at the age of six and I grew up in Kum until uh
1994 and I didn't know anything about about what what what was happening back
at home in in ecuator Guinea but later I learned that my father was
executed and he was put in a trial of
perpetuating um of of killing Mass killing in in the country and but I wasn't aware of that I
learn that after the the reputation that my father had the the um my father had
in a in a p in in the Western Country I learned it later on when I left Tang in
1994 so I decided to do when I so I left when I finished my
studies um I so Kim first of all Kim gave us option
if once we finished the study we could stay in pyang or we could go back or
live the country and I decided to leave the country because I was really
immersed in a identity crisis as you can see I I mixed race black and white
because my mother is uh White uh from
Spain and then uh growing up in in
Asia and so I had a this very deep identity crisis and I wanted to know
about myself in and do research learn about my my culture with
these new cultures but in theory which is mine African culture and European culture so I decided to leave in
1994 and I arrived in in in Madrid first uh my Spanish wasn't good so I
before I live in Pan actually I did a six six months of course the Spanish
course and then I I yeah I left the country and I arrived in Madrid but my
Spanish wasn't good enough to look for look for um the job or do uh a proper
investigation and communicate and then on top of that there was many I was
going through many changes culture sh and all this as as you can you can
read it in the book as I mentioned in the book so that's a bit of the context
uh I am giving you now thank you so there's so many things
I want to follow up on but I think first thing I want to ask is now as an adult woman
how Monica views her current identity
do you feel completely comfortable with your identity you have mentioned just now
being in so many different cultures speaking so many different languages at one point in time I think you basically
only spoke Korean when you lived in North Korea and then Spanish you
regained it and of course we're conversing in English and I know language is not the only indicator of
culture but just as a cultural your cultural identity do you
feel comfortable with it now with yourself I do I absolutely do I feel
comfortable with uh who I am and with my identity which is it my sounds weird for for many
who for many people if you haven't gone through identity crisis and like I did
um so I feel in order to understand that you know I feel first of all like a
Korean because it's the culture I grew up with and I it's very much embedded in
me inside so if I have to put it in the level is like Korean culture is the
embedded one where I feel very comfortable with it and then comes um
European and African cultures together but what I noticed is that I can mimic
these two cultures but they will never been inside me like the Korean culture
it is because I grew up from 60 years old is the first language that I learned
properly and uh yeah from 6 years old up to 24 years old I lived in in North
Korea is completely Korean I'm completely Korean and uh and when I left
I learned these two other cultures which is African and European so they are on
top of the Korean culture but still cannot be
um I don't feel it as as I feel like in
Korean yeah the Korean culture is just so deeply ingrained in you right because
it's just it was just your childhood and nobody can ever take one's childhood away so yeah absolutely absolutely and
culture that's why I think I think that we we human I think it this is my
view uh you might disagree I think we are from where grew up not from where we
born I think like like my I I agree with that
yeah I mean you can you can look like U you might look like a Asian but if you
grw up in Canada you're Canadian you are canadi you might still
you might still understand Chinese culture or Asian culture because it's
part of you or maybe you have been exposed with your parents and friends
there but the place the environment you grw up and and education you have is
Canada and that's very much embedded in yourself so that's exactly what happened
with me I'm very I'm I feel comfortable when I am in Korea whether it's South
Korea whether in North Korea I feel very comfortable because it's part of me the cult is part of
me mhm yeah so many people listening to
growing up in North Korea during its economic rise
this may have I mean this is not even a a wild assumption so many people
listening to this have never ever been to North Korea you grew up in North
Korea in a period quite some time ago I mean can you describe what it was like I
know obviously there's a lot of wonderful descriptions in the book but just for those for listeners like how
would you describe it if you could try to do it in maybe simple general terms
like what is it like to to grow up in North Korea and what is North Korea
like right so um I will put people in the context
so in order to understand Korea I like every time I said Korea have H
shade and it's comp Lex uh comp complex
society and Country so when we are to when we were sent to
study North Korea is 70 70 and I stayed it
until uh early 90s the 70s and 80s actually starting from after the war
from 60 70 80 Korea was really doing well economically and that's this is a fact
that um if if uh anyone academic
is uh listening can do the research proper research and and there is a um
documents that's showing how the country was doing economically much better than
South Korea so I grew up in that period so
there was no it was booming you could see it and um 70 so I lived from late 70
early 80 up to um
1994 so it was nice people are very kind the country is very clean and beautiful
especially puman obviously there is a huge difference between the countryside
and the and the City pyang and uh the
capital but since I grew up in pyang for me it
was it was very beautiful very clean very clean City uh friends people were really kind
to us and uh I mean I loved being with
them spending the time in the park because pyang has a lot of Park
where you can on the weekend you can go and do picnics and people love going out
to do picnics and doing the Korean typical Korean
barbecue and spending time with f they are very family oriented North Korean
are very very much uh family oriented spending the time with the
family and uh yeah most and but that's mostly when I was in a university
because I grew up in um in a boarding school so from 10 10 or
12 years old I was in boarding school but that time was more rather than boarding school and then I was um we
were more um how I can say living in from
Monday to Friday we were living in school and the weekend and we could go out to spend a time with other
foreigners who were in the city um students from
Syria and uh and in early 80s there were Eastern European students as well and
also we used to go travel to another other cities like
wanan so it was quite good it was really nice time you mentioned that
Monica's relationship with Kim Il Sung
uh Kim Son was the person who took care of you
really I mean just because of the relationship that Kim had with your your father um one thing that I didn't quite
get a very strong handle on when reading the book was just maybe the personal side of Kim or
maybe more of your interactions with him can you describe him
I mean I don't know if it's too much to say he was like a a father figure to you or like I don't know maybe just describe
the the the relationship a bit and and uh basically
like who he's what he's like because it's also something that many people
myself included just have no idea about yeah I am I understand that's the
question many people I do and I try to keep it quiet um uh private because it's a
relationship um but I can tell you like I I mentioned in the book he was
um he was a a like a father figure to
us because when my father send us he sent us with a
letter one was written to for written he wrote two letters one to kimon and one
to us and uh in the letter I was the
same context he said that he sending us to kimlong who will be responsible for
of our education and he will look up to us and
um and he will decide where to send a which school is a better for us to for
the education and then he he told us we should never forget about who who we are
and he emphasized that we are African and um also he he he he said
that once we finish the study we should go back to guinea and uh and walk for
for guinea so so yes kimon was
a a photo figure for us and he was there every time when we needed
something he was there and we were able to communicate him as I mentioned in the
book when he sent after sending us to um boarding
school in that boarding school we could communicate with him over the phone and
uh through his nephew because his nephew was the subdirector of the school back
then and he the nephew was living in the school and so in the campus of the
school his house was just next to inside of the campus Because the campus was very is very huge campus and he had his
nephew had a house there because he worked there as d sub subd director
deputy director I think in English is Deputy yeah and
um through him as well we we communicated with him and then he
actually is a person for me is the person who kept his promise to his late
friend as opposite to B castra because my my father sent also my elder brother
tell to to Cuba but there was sent back to
Equator when when my father died uh was a kill but did did send us back that makes
that tells you a lot the difference between two leaders but communism kept his a
promise to look after us until we became um
adult so for me uh that's Kim as a person I know MH I I tend to
make I I was born in a it might be because I was born in a polit pol U
politician family and raised by a politician so I I learned to make a
difference between a person a Leader's person a leader as a
politician so that's that's what I can tell you about kimson because Kim had such an impact on
on North Korea - "one single narrative is divisive"
the evolution of North Korea I mean just just being the I don't think it's wrong
to say just being the absolute leader of yeah the country he shaped the
country's uh history and Destiny one thing that's very interesting I think is a theme in the book which is you know
you go back and you try and understand or revisit history
that that claims to be one thing but then maybe turns out to be another after
you do research or you try try to dig into the facts in terms of Kim and North
Korea like do people have misunderstandings about it did you have misunderstandings about it when you were
younger and then you realized as you got older like oh maybe it's not like that either one way or the other like I'm
just wondering are there things about North Korea that people may not know
about or maybe that you didn't know about like it it's it's kind of a two-part question oh yes
absolutely because like I mentioned in the book I grew up in a society North Korean Society is very atic Society so
the information outside information is not is very selective in in any case if
if comes in it's very selective so has almost none I would say outsite uh
information and the history that's we learn what history um I mean Korean
history we learn is now I know it after the research is very much
um in their view is is seen from their view if I if that makes sense I in
favoring them yeah and uh I didn't know that until I
visit I visited Beijing in 1989 like I mentioned in the book
so I didn't realize that I was brainwashed you don't know when you are
growing up in a in a let's let's let me explain it this way you growing you grow
you growing up only seeing one thing and believ in one thing and because it's
been repeated to you since you are young when you get older you believe you end
up believe it that's the truth and
uh because you didn't go outside of that that square where you liveing in but
once you go out and you see out side that you realize oh what I have been
taught or what I have been seen might not be absolute truth that's the reason
I started question questioning when I went back to pyang after visiting ping
in 19 in 1989 but this is something that it
happen in all societies regardless we know or or or don't know or like it or
dislike it it happens in every society and it can it's not only only um North
Korean Society does that every society for sure for sure I think um
yeah and even I can give you an example and this is not something new in our society it's so ancient this phenomenon
that plateau in Plateau caves the story of plateau caves he talk about how
people is brainwashed in Plateau caves the the allegory of plate caves that's
exactly how Society works and the power relation you see how they work
so yes I admit I was brainwashed but what I
also um did it was like I I pushed
myself I challenged myself I pushed myself to to to go out there and do the
research and and verify looking for the fact and verify things in order to to
learn about uh what is true what it meant to be
true right I I wanted to ask like after
you first of all I agree with you in the sense that we all live in some sort of
subjective reality like the cave allegory as you mentioned because you just grow up just accepting a lot of
things that face value like we were talking about this before this interview and you know I had told you that you
know before coming to Mainland China I I had the wrong ideas and it wasn't it was
just like I just I was just misinformed I wasn't researching it and it's just
you know I guess if I make this into a question when you look back on your time
uh you know in your youth in North Korea is it too strong to say that like a lot
of the reality was a lie or or was it just like was it how exactly would you
describe that like I I cuz I don't know to what extent you felt like there was
to use your words brainwashing and to what extent was there was reality basically I wasn't I wouldn't say is
everything lies I would say is rather in a subtle way of
politicized and from outside I mean so uh it's a very subtle way of and
how I could say for instance um when I was young I took it as a
normal thing that's uh if I want to go to visit my
friend's house I need to go I needed to go through a a
bureaucratic very long bureaucratic uh process to get permission and to to
visit my friend's house many people tend to say oh you cannot visit uh North
korean's house it's not actually it's not it's nothing you can visit but there
is a bureaucratic uh process you need to go through and uh uh and also uh people I
mean they will select which house you can go that's linked to the freedom yeah
so you don't have free freedom to go to visit your house friend so when I was
young growing up there I didn't question that I assume that's the normal way and then as I grow up and I I
started questioning why why I cannot go to my friend's house when I whenever I
can I want to go or so these sort of things uh when you are young you don't
realize it that's that's should shouldn't be that way you don't realize
that but as you grow up you just not questioning that MH it should be yeah changed the
other way around yeah um so that's the an example
for instance I can give you right now and in the book as you read the book there are more examples but uh this is
right now what I I can I can give you example of of
questioning um yeah and uh everything about North Korea once I left North
Korea what I was in shock it was that how is
portrayed North Korea in a how Outsiders portrays North Korea it was
also so wrong um so it was quite exaggerated
where they say um yes I there is there is no this kind of fre Freedom like um
you cannot uh foreigners and um natives
cannot interrup interrupt freely that's true uh but you can do it through
a system like I said bureaucratic system they they
invented and uh what are the the most average example I came across was was
like uh that and in in North Korea all the students um must cut the hair or not
the student all the woman must cut the hair because in that way they save money
and I was like are you serious because they are not free they cannot even they are not free they cannot even cut the
hair and that's that example was
was that was average for me how you can say that that's that's really not true
and I was able to show them the the picture of my friends with the different
lengths of the hair and the skirt and even if they go further they
can research some images on on on Google to see if all woman's hair are equal
it's it's just it's just um um unbelievable that's one of example and I
right now it's not coming up but uh uh many many things are very much
exaggerated exagerated because is it taken in a way to politicize the country I'm not I'm
not saying that North Korea is the perfect Society perfect country that's not what I'm
saying however MH I think politicizing the country image in order to isolate
them is what I think is not right um I think we should uh
say things how it is because if if we are just focusing on
one single narrative what we do we divide people
one single narrative is really divisive and when we are Divi we divide
each other is is a kind of it reminds me the colonial uh ideology divide and Rule
exactly what it does when when when you are telling someone only one perspective
instead of inviting them to look all aspect that this Society might have
because it's complicated society and historical background you need to know historical background and it's uh um so
many factors are involved and without putting this in context just
to believe what media is saying
you I disagree with that I disagree
on the role of privilege in interpreting reality
disagree I think there's uh something to be said about the fact that we all live
in our own realities and I think even if whatever our reality is in that moment
or whatever the reality is in today that is our deao reality but something I was
very struck by when I was reading the book was just given your background do you think
that your reality was also filtered a certain way because your life in North Korea you had
quite a privileged upbringing in the sense that you had a special protector
right you have the leader of the country basically taking care of you that's not something that every North Korean will
have uh you know you have you have certain access right you have certain uh
a way of life and again I'm saying the reality thing because your reality is your reality like no one's going to take
away that for you but I'm also wondering like have you thought about like maybe
like you also had a certain view of North Korea both in the moment and later
because of your position right I I guess like have you thought about that like I don't know
maybe maybe yeah maybe you can maybe if you can comment on that that would be helpful absolutely I never
denied that I I um I am privileged I I
would say Let Me Def Define this in certain degree I'm privileged because I was
born as uh I was born born and I was raised by
these two postcolonial leaders so that gives me
like you said un unowned access to to many things yeah so I recognize in
that degree I am uh privileged but here if you look at if you look at closer we
are talking about inter intersectionality yeah I don't know if you have heard
about the term intersectionality intersectionality is about the the privileged of a
certain uh individual how it manifest so let me explain it this way so I'm
privileged because of this background I have however if you look at in a society
where I lived I I was my minority make
sense make sense what I'm saying make sense so I was a minority as a minority
I do not have many access that's Korean my uh my friends had in the society I
did not have that and uh so in that sense they are
privileged yeah because they have done sure so when I'm saying I'm
privileged yes I'm privileged in a certain degree but not absolute uh
privileged over everyone else in the
society and um example I just gave you yeah and that is revealed when in the
book I mentioned precisely that's why I talk about in the class of of when we
were uh um when we were learning uh the Korean
history which is not mine I am minority which is not mine and then
biology class you might remember when I was talking about those classes uh in
boarding school so when you when you look at that I am isolated I do not have
the same privilege as my classmates had in a
society in relation to the society I might have privilege economically over
them or power because of my my friend uh my um my fathers so is a relative the
privilege is always relative and one more thing I want to mention because of
of of this fact that we have this privilege kimon
was very much aware of this um bear in mind kimon is someone
who who who grew up almost grew up in
China in Kim you know you know in I think you prounce Jin in Chinese Jin in
Korean is gilin it's um the north part in uh where the um the border between
China and there are so many Korean there so he he grew up there during the
Japanese Occupation and he fought against Japanese so he's someone that's
he got he got through all this difficulty if I can say difficult he
fult it wasn't easy back then his life until he came back and then it's a long
story so he he was very much aware of what's the privilege and the raising
people so he told actually you are privileged but he removed many of
privileged in order to make us that you must to know you must to
be aware raise awareness in us and be
humble that was kind of everyday sermon from Kim be humble know you are privileged
however use that privilege for the social construct in your country
it was kind of sermon every day humbleness humbleness so he was yeah so something
when you say I had a privilege in Korea yes I did
but certain degree in certain degree I had privilege and also and on top of
that like I said Kim made sure to remove many privilege
in order that's why he sent us to the boarding military boarding school because in Korea many people say if you
go send the children to military you make them people person that's why he sent us such a
discipline very difficult school where we had to wake up at 5:00 in the morning
running why because he was removing us that privilege right he Tred to trying to uh
add the discipline yeah exactly mhm and gain uh life value that's why he decided
that school for us and then that's very interesting yeah
because it it means there's a kind of um a mindfulness about privilege and just
mindfulness yes yeah yeah I mean it's a I think
privilege is is not bad thing I realize that some people tend to think as a bad
thing as long as you are aware of your privilege you are privileged and you use
that privilege as a tool to make to work or let's say you're
policy maker to produce a better policy that will help
others that privilege is good because you are using that that privilege as
tool to make a better good make sense what I'm trying to tell you so not just
being arrogant and using your Your Privilege just for your own sake no if you aware
that's why it's important he they were instilling us yes
you are privileged but be aware of that and use that privilege for good for the
the journey to uncover her father's true legacy
society you were separated at such a young age from your your father your
father was the first president of your country and you did something very
extraordinary later on is that you attempted to learn about your father in
more in a more factual reality based way and you um you did a lot of work in this
area so can you tell me about what you did exactly and and just maybe more about your father in general right
so we I need to put in context the people um they can they can Google my
father name Francisco mathas and they will see all the best things that they clim mafas has
done so I have to admit that I I Googled it um and I have to admit that yes um
I'll just say it like uh what I saw was that the history books
said that he was one of the most uh brutal dictators of the country that um
he did many things that were that were ugly I'll just put it that way yeah yeah
so that's what I read as well when I left pyang so you can imagine I was in
shock I was I was really I did not have a guidance how to
deal this kind of feeling so I was and on top of
that uh arriving in Madrid to first thing in in elport baras elport I heard
when I heard they when the um how you call call it the the security
the IM migration Security in the airport they saw my passport uh they realized as I was a
guinean they they started by m Maas they didn't realize I was maia's
daughter but what they realized I was a g Equator ginian so they started B Ming
and that was the first sh and on top of that I was going through the cultural
shock language food everything all together all so I went in a depression
almost depression and uh I locked myself three months in the
room I didn't want to go out I didn't want to speak to anyone or talk and I'm trying
to understand what's going on and who was my father why people are saying this
about my father when when I what I knew about my father
through gimon was completely different so I was in that who to
believe who is telling the truth and uh after three months I just
decid I said to myself enough crying I need to stand up and find out what's the
truth who's telling the truth so but the first thing I needed to
do it was the language because my Spanish like I said earlier was not
really good so I did the again Spanish course there in Sara because uh when I
arrived in Spain I I stopped in Madrid but I I went
to live in fosa is North is a North it's a it's a
city in north of Spain and I did this study and I started
to investigate to the do the research about Maas
I started actually with a um ginan Community because I had easy access to
them first and um uh it was divided opinion about
Maas back then well I'm talking about 90s yeah 90 90 I arrived in Madrid 94 so
we're talking about '90s and the the the the the opinion was
divided completely those people who said um um it wasn't directly him
but um indirectly because um he didn't he
didn't punish those enough who was killing the people and uh on the other hand there
was these people saying oh no that's absolutely political uh lies by Spain
because uh back then Spanish government didn't like Maas it wasn't the candidate
they wanted in fact um they tried to kill him they
failed and many many lies was invent
invented and his speech was manipulated in a political uh uh
politicized so again I was more and more getting into the confusion because
now it was kind of half and half the opinion about my
father and so about on the I kept interviewing many people
opions and then as I my interview progressed I was really lucky
people was introducing me uh talk to this person talk to this person uh this
person uh lived that era they know and I was able to uh interview
Spaniard as well a lot of Spaniard and I was surprised I expected many spania to
talk badly about my father but those who were not politician will were telling me
that that's not true is a is a stain our government I mean spia our government
politics because they didn't want him that's not
true so uh so it's it
was the confusion was like I said I was getting more confused because it's
really it's like you don't know who I was keep asking who was this person who
so controversial for for for for many by um for anybody on the other hand many
many people adore him so I needed to know also from a kind
from person who with academic study like a lawyer or politician
so I was looking for his lawyer Antonio Garcia Troon garciaan is it was very
important person in the independence of Equador guini because who he was the
person who was um advising my father
group when they were um fighting for the independence
so Antonio Garcia the lawyer Spaniard Spanish lawyer he knew really all the
process of decolonization because he was done thanks to him he is the one who
knew uh he even dropped the the the um the constitution of the
country of of eator but it didn't go through because Spain said
no but the first drop of the Constitution was dropped by by this
lawyer so he really really know what he's talking about and when I
went when I he was living p in Madrid um when I decided to to go his
house commit him I was really like I said to myself well I don't care
I will I accept anything I will accept anything if if he said yes my father was
a killer I will accept it and that's how it is and if he he said that was
political lies but I would ask him some proof the put me in the contest in A
explain me that in a in a very um
um academic and logical um way so I got I got there with this thing
thinking when I arrived in his his home he opened the door he was waiting for
me and uh the first I remember that back yesterday the first question I I I did
to him was was my father and he started laughing and
laughing laughing and he said uh at the same time he said wow you're very
brave his um Brave go because not everybody able to do to make that
question about their own father and he said um he begin with a it was really long
conversation it took I arrived at 12:00 and I left to house 5:00
so and um he said the short the short answer he gave me he was
no he wasn't a and when I heard that wow James you
can't imagine I just relieved right there was yeah yes
reli relieve and I was crying and wow even now I get emotion because I
remember that day so it was big relief and then he
said um in order to understand he needed to put me in the context political
context of decolonization what was going on in Guinea what was going on in Spain
back then and he told me in order to understand all these things I needed to
study international relations and then also he mentioned
about the UN you know it was the era when the UN um was uh how is called
right now I don't remember you know the giving the independence to a African count so actually Spain was was uh un
was pressuring Spain un was per in Spain to give the the uh
Independence so he explained me you know all and also the trial we talked about
the trial Mia's trial which was a show trial because they couldn't prove
any accusation they had and also we talked about um the the lawyer he's
actually Chilean he's from Chile but he worked for international
court and um he was the uh uh he was invited by the trial that's
uh took place in equator Guinea just as a to be present yeah uh as a represent
representant of the um the international court and then after that he wrote the
the uh the report of our and so Antonio Garcia has that that
report and we went one by one every pages and Antonio was just
um refusing everything because the first thing he said to me is like a lawyer
cannot start saying in my opinion in my opinion in my opinion in my opinion it's
not his opinion what matter is the fact and the proof and if
there is a a um can't remember the word there is
any any um suspect you mean like oh suspicion Okay
small suspicion you cannot condemn someone you need to prove against that
suspicion you need to prove that this there is a word um legal term for that I
I forgot R now right now I forgot in English but there are a term for that if
and then there is a innocence um what's called I mentioned it in the book right
now I can't remember but there is in the book yeah so you need ultimately you need really to prove that that person
was guilty before in innocent uh unless
proven unless otherwise yeah yeah exactly so my father did not did not
have that that um how I can say they
didn't give him that chance because it was political they needed to kill him they needed eliminate him from the uh
Gan and Spanish political scener Maas was obstacle for
Spain because he didn't he didn't work for the um
benefit and also during the trial my Mafia said um his last speech which is in U is
on YouTube He said said he said he is a
responsible as a pol as a head of this of State he was
responsible of what happened but he never he said I never signed any
document or sending people to kill I take the uh responsibility of
what happened during my Monday so that's political responsibility here is taking
back makees sense what what he's trying to there is a there is a
difference uh I'll explain you why is different so Maia says I'm responsible
because imagine it like this you are father of a family your children are
behaving bad you said as a father I'm responsible of behavior of this children
even if you didn't teach these children children to be behave bad but you are
saying as father I'm responsible that's quite politician responsibility he and
he acknowledged in his uh last speech and at the same time he
demanded to go through a thorough investigation of what happened mhm but
that y that was absolutely ignored no one took that
Monica's next book is about her father
account and yeah so it's it's it's very long it's very long because I'm I'm
writing my second book about about Maas and I
will I'm actually editing it now and I will put it in detail in that book but
it's it's a it's a very very sad it was a very very sad
because the trial was a show trial completely AAL
trial and even the people in the village because also we need to take account
that gen as African country is very much linked to the tradition in a country so
uh the old people old the people in the uh uh in
the village where he comes from they said actually they said there is no
proof that Maas has done this you guys are killing you're killing him just
because of the political um um uh purposes reasons
MH so that's what I I I spent my half of that hood researching about what
happened who was masas and what happened and um I GA it now and I am
going to put them in a word I mean in a word but I'm going to
publish that and I'm in process of of uh editing it because I think it's a
history we need to uh I mainly I I sometime I think I I
may mainly because it's history the new generation don't know in Guinea news
generation many news generation now they don't even know who Maas was m and it's
the person who signed Independence of the country right
so yes so it's a it's it's what I'm I am trying to do
and uh when I left Korea is what I did a research
now I I mean I keep this this
discovering many things but main part that I think uh is done I just need
to organize it edit it and publish so Monica just to end this on
Monica's fondest memory of her father
a a more personal note what is the fondest memory that you
have of your father if I'm honest I don't have a
memory of him because my memory begins when when we
arrived in in in in North Korea in pyang the only memory I have in so my
memory is just like I I think because of all this emotional experience or
trauma I have gone through my brain blocked in order I think they said my
sister is is a is a and she explained it in a easy way she
said that the Blain have this mechanism that's just block you in order to
protect me so I don't have memory of my father but sometime I have this kind of
like um a image very blue it's not very clear
very blur image of him not I can't even see the face is just the
back where we used to work in a in a taking us in a camp to to work on uh
because he used to have the um uh where he cultivated coffee and he
used to work there and on the weekend he according to my sister he used to take
us there to show us young age how to to um word kind of
this working Spirit yeah so that's what image only that's very blue image I have
so I don't know I I I don't have it I don't have because is like I said before
the brain do block my memories and my memory begin from since we arrived in kyang in
7 77 7 1979
yeah um Monica thank you so much for taking the time today to speak your
truth I think this is uh this is this is a wonderful conversation that we had and uh I I for
those who have not had the chance to read the book uh please do check out Monica's book black girl from Pyongyang
and it it sounds like there's a there's a new book that you're working on as well to to uh you know uncover more of
the the truth in the history right of of your history of the people's history so
um looking forward to it I mean yeah thank you so much for taking the time
today and thank you for having me really I appreciate it and I I hope um people
whoever gonna uh listen to this um can
um can read my book and enjoy it and just see the different perspective of
the historical event thank you so much thank
you thanks for listening to the Y with James Sue to support the show please
leave a rating on your favorite podcasting app Spotify Apple podcast or any platform really it helps spread the
word and tell others that you enjoy my work same goes for YouTube if you're watching this on YouTube please
subscribe and leave a comment that helps get the word out and goes a long way
thanks for tuning in and we'll catch you next time
===
57 Comments
Sejin Lifeforce ็ๅฝ
Add a comment...
@natashakasozi
8 months ago
Thank you for this interview. Listening to Ms Macias, I wonder how many other African countries have such a story? Grateful to the Father who was wise enough to send his children to Korea and Grateful that the Leader accepted and took care of them. A friend indeed.
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@Franchko
4 months ago
Waaaaaaay better than that channel 1 interview where the interviewer wouldnt stfu. good stuff
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1 reply
@AdalEr-y3y
8 months ago (edited)
Great presentation respectful interviewer. Appreciate your journalism excellence!
We are great full for your courage Ms. Macias !
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@socialwork63
6 months ago
hand-green-crystal-ballhand-green-crystal-ballhand-green-crystal-ballI. love how the interviewer listened intensely and gave her the platform to express herself and speak freely.hand-green-crystal-ballhand-green-crystal-ballhand-green-crystal-ball
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@jeromelubabalojacobs8872
7 months ago
I would love to hear about her siblings, mother and her relationship with the current leader of North Korea.
15
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@SmokinAce
1 year ago
This was incredibly interesting. Thank you for sharing
18
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@daezjn
7 months ago (edited)
Wow amazing story. A very respectful interview with an eloquent and intelligent woman. Her life journey is so compelling. Really gives me a different perspective about political leaders of that time, the historical significance of what her research brought to light, her identity crisis, etc. Will definitely look her book up!
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@marcelooyono835
5 months ago
We love You Mรณnica and we are missing you our first daughter Mรณnica ❤❤❤
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@Amadou731
8 months ago
I am watching right now. She said you are from where u grow up. She feels really Korean cuz she grow up in Korea but I will add she even looks like korean
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@soulrebel2006
8 months ago
An awesome video. I can listen to Monica all day. She has a very interesting story. You can see her mannerisms and voice is most definitely Asian. I’m on Amazon right now buying the book.
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@thierrylouis4307
8 months ago
Much admiration for Kim Il Sung. As a black man who lived in South Korea for six years non military and outside of Seoul, I loved the country. I also understand the complexity between the two Koreas and I understand outsiders have interfered in their fate. I have come to understand North Korea's stance as well so hearing Ms. Macias made so much sense. What would any self dignified country do to defend themselves against empire? Exactly what North Korea does. Great interview!
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@sofiaramoiofficial
8 months ago
Just found out about her thank you for a longer interview
11
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@VRichardsn
1 year ago
Fascinating. Thank you for sharing.
7
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@stevenr.rodriguez9997
6 months ago
This interview puts the already shameful channel 4 interview further in the hole, great job!
9
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@COMBLOCVZ58
1 year ago
awesome. have been studying Francisco Macias and EG for a while
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@lclf6583
1 year ago
Amazing Sharing! Thanks a lot James. It is so interesting to hear from Monica Macias that has so much experience across strong cultures. A real transcultural life!
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@nancymcgee4776
8 months ago
Thank you James! Very fascinating interview from the beginning to the end! ๐ฅ
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@rolandajones6898
9 months ago
Very interesting! Thank you for sharing.
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@paranomsun
1 month ago
Incredible story & interview
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@judithmoletsane
4 months ago
We done brave women for telling your story❤
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@erykahhoney588
7 months ago
๐ซถ๐พ what a fascinating story
2
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@marcusgarvey9726
5 months ago
Amazing and interesting interview very well organized I really love it.
1
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@misterkay1603
5 months ago
Great interview. I never knew this ๐ข
1
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@monsG165
3 months ago
Channel 4 should learn from this interview.
1
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@MrILES-gu3xb
6 months ago
Captivating interview. Keep it coming ๐๐พ
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@AE-ben
6 months ago
The Host is a good interviewer ❤
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@laurymakesaway6695
3 months ago
What did her father do after Spain left is the question. He was diabolical.
1
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@menthol1234
8 months ago
Fascinating interview
Reply
@carolynbaguma1112
6 months ago
This is something a lot of the diaspora (myself inc) can relate to. That third space identity.
1
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@johnkabuoro6021
6 months ago
What I can say is post independence in Africa was really tough in that the colonial government didn't leave Africa willingly , most of the founding fathers were once lebeled as Terrorist, most were jailed before ascending to the presidency take for example Nelson Mandela he was labelled a Terrorist till 1998 , this was way after the cold War had ended . Back then most of the founding fathers of post African independence were either overthrown, assassinated or exiled . As a leader in Africa you needed to be a dictator and killer so as to govern . They were battling the remnants of the colonial government on the other end they were battling the difference in ideology of the cold War.
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@electricaltimelapsetest5713
3 months ago
Wow you are a really good interviewer
Reply
@lethumangcayi9076
7 months ago
I think an environment influences your appearance she does look very much Korean
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@sofiaramoiofficial
8 months ago
Where can we purchase the book?
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1 reply
@mdsoulsounds
4 months ago
Thanks for this interview. Where is Monica’s mom? Why did she choose Spain? Her father did fight colonialism, but fell victim to his greed and power too, guilty of brutal opposition killings under his nose.
Reply
@strikerreese4795
1 year ago
this was very interesting
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@williamnathan4630
3 months ago
I have been following the story and interviews, really Kim il Sung was a friend in deed and in need. If I were Kim Jong Un, I could call back Monica to work with NK government!
But, James please tell Monica to go back to Equetorial Guinea to settle the matter even though his father didn't do bad. Kim il Sung, told her while in NK to study and go back for Africa and her country. I think it's a time to go back and work for her country.
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@ceciliamungofa7374
8 months ago
You didn't ask her about her mom , why?
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1 reply
@LaRissa-ve9nb
11 months ago
Very interesting!!!!
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@christopherkelly577
5 months ago
๐ฐ๐ต๐๐ช
Eternal President Kim Il Sung was a class act
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@mrjomonic
4 months ago
But does she still visit North Korea. Will she be safe to do so
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@Skylightatdusk
7 months ago
Movie please
2
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@BuiIdlntoGame
3 months ago
8:38
Reply
@MustafaAli-lb8dq
5 months ago
Sending your daughter to North Korea is the first red flag.
What a horrible woman defending her reputation!
2
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2 replies
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