"Beyond Utopia" and Human Rights in North Korea | The Capital Cable #81
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9,984 views Streamed live on Nov 2, 2023 The Capital Cable
Please join us for a special Capital Cable discussion on the gripping, thrilling and timely new documentary "Beyond Utopia," which follows various families as they attempt to flee North Korea, one of the most oppressive places on Earth, a land they grew up believing was a paradise.
This documentary is a suspenseful, riveting portrait of the lengths people will go to gain freedom, and takes us on a journey with a courageous pastor as he works tirelessly to guide individuals attempting to flee North Korea.
Joining us for the discussion will be Dr. Sue Mi Terry, one of the producers of the documentary, and Amb. Robert King, who served as President Barack Obama's special envoy for North Korean human rights issues from 2009 to 2017.
This timely episode will also discuss the broader topic of North Korean human rights, and the recent confirmation of Amb. Julie Turner as the new special envoy on North Korean human rights issues, the first person to hold that position since Amb. King in 2017.
The Capital Cable is made possible by general support to the Center for Strategic and International Studies.
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Transcript
Intro
0:00
next on the capital Cable North Korean human rights Beyond Utopia new film produced by our own Dr Sumi Terry
0:06
Ambassador Robert King special guest all that and more next on the capital
0:12
[Music]
0:28
cable you in Korea good morning to those of you in DC good day to those of you
0:34
around the world welcome to the 81st installment of the capital cable brought to you by csis I'm Mark Lippert your
0:41
host and moderator this week on the capitol Cable North Korea human rights
Meet Ambassador Robert King
0:46
with US ambassador Robert King also Dr Sumi Terry one of our regulars will talk
0:51
about her new film on North CR human rights Beyond Utopia but first and foremost we've got to get to our very
0:57
special guest csis is own Ambassador Robert King who is here to
1:03
talk through all things North Korea I'm going to go through his bio to give him a proper int introduction even though we
1:08
all know him quite well as a serious I would say switched on yet affable happy
1:15
warrior in the best tradition of Hubert Humphrey uh welcome to the show Bob and
1:20
I'm going to give you a quick intro here served a special Envoy for North Korea human rights issues at the Department of
1:26
State nominated of course by President Barack Obama and served uh from 09 to 17
1:31
he obviously led us efforts to press North Korea for progress on human rights us humanitarian work in North Korea and
1:37
the treatment of US citizens being held in the north he represented the United States in international organizations
1:43
that dealt with this really critical issue earlier this is where I know
1:48
Ambassador King from when he was Dr King and the staff director of the house Foreign Affairs committee under chairman
1:55
Tom Lantos and Howard bman and prior to that senior professional staff member of the committee and and concurrently Chief
2:01
of Staff to representative Tom Lantos we call him Henry Kissinger of the Lantos office given how much power he
2:06
Consolidated there kidding of course in the 70s he was a White House fellow member of the national security staff
2:12
working with Dr brazinski under in the Carter Administration also really interesting assistant director of
2:18
research and Senior Analyst at Radio free Europe in Munich Germany from 70 to 77 holds a PhD in international
2:25
relations from the Fletcher School uh of Law and diplomacy And a ba from political science from
2:32
BYU a professor taught a range of courses and again one of our own here at
2:37
csis one of the best in the business across a range of issues but of course when you think about North Korean human
2:43
rights you think of Ambassador King Bob Ambassador King Dr King welcome to the
Introductions
2:50
show you're Bob you're on mute here we gotta we got there we go I'm I'm not
2:55
this technology stuff yet it's great to be with you again app appreciate the work that you guys do your programs
3:03
weekly are extremely helpful in terms of keeping up with what's going on inre you do get a very good job all right thanks
3:12
well that's Victor that's high marks that's like the toughest Professor giving you an a you know so you know I
3:18
mean it's not and let me just tell you it's not all this great inflation that they have over at Georgetown so anyway
3:23
I'm joking so welcome back to the show Ambassador King we're we're honor we're looking forward to a great episode here here um
3:31
next up uh I I would I would have to introduce our normal our regular panelist regular rather can't talk this
3:38
morning Dr Sumi Terry everybody knows Sue uh she used to be in charge of all
3:43
things Asia at the Wilson Center uh csas fellow uh NSC CIA Columbia University
3:49
you name it Sue's dun it and as I mentioned uh is a key producer of this
3:55
very interesting new film Beyond Utopia which we've talked a little bit about before but we'll highlight here again
4:01
today welcome back to the show Sue thank you thank you for having me on thank you and welcome Ambassador King I did not
4:08
know that you are a Fletcher grad or Fletcher Alum so
4:14
welcome Fletcher is a good school produces really good people yeah like
4:19
you know you're like my my SBE you are I did not know that yes all right well we have a voting
Guest Introductions
4:26
block a voting majority here for Fletcher today so watch out for very Pro pleasure resolution sneaking through all
4:33
right Victor get ready to exercise that Georgetown V2 all right last but not least Dr Victor Chaw Vice Dean
4:39
Georgetown University uh defense policy board head of all Asia things at csias
4:45
which of course includes the Korea chair Bush NSC uh and a uh and a I would say a
4:53
surly Giants fan after the debacle last week um I I could feel your pain the
4:59
misfield goal you know just it was awful so Victor welcome back to the show um yes uh thank you very much it's
5:07
great to be on with you all and of course to have Bob King um with us as
5:12
well um let's move on to The Brighter topic of Human Rights and the north Kore
5:17
and the New York Giants all right excellent that was um
5:23
that was quite I I did buy the NFL Sunday Ticket this year and I watched I
Deadly Serious Topic
5:28
was toggling through as I was working out and I was watching that and I was feeling as Bill Clinton used to say
5:34
feeling your pain so sorry Victor on that one all right deadly serious topic despite the fact a little bit of uh
5:41
jovial minations back and forth deadly serious topic and just the best in the business to talk about it so we're
5:47
really really looking forward to getting down to business here number one number two I'd also say just quickly uh really
5:53
I think um it's a through line of our show especially recently we've done a lot of work on North Ken human rights
5:59
incredibly important issue something that probably we would argue all of us collectively would argue on this show
6:04
does not get the attention that it deserves so we're really again fortunate to have Ambassador King here today so
6:10
Bob let me let me just come to you ear first broad Strokes can you just bring
6:16
um our viewers up to speed on what is the latest in terms of the North Korean
6:22
human rights situation what should we be watching what are you watching number one and number two where does this issue
Present Day Situation in North Korea
6:30
feature in the US South Korea bilateral relationship uh in in its current uh
6:37
Forum right now in it in present day Bob again welcome to the show the floor is yours well thanks it's good to be here
6:45
quite frankly we've been in a situation for the last three years coid pandemic
6:51
getting information out of North Korea has been extremely difficult and uh
6:57
people are not going in people are not going out the Swedish Ambassador who takes care of us
7:03
uh citizen issues for us in in buyong has been operating from Stockholm for
7:10
the last couple of years so we're in a situation where there isn't a lot of contact things are beginning to open up
7:17
there are indications that uh people are returning to North Korea even North
7:22
Koreans were prevented from returning they're returning to North Korea and
7:27
it's going to be interesting to see how things go as as we move on one of the
7:33
real difficulties is that North Korea is in Fairly tough shape in terms of uh its
7:39
economy uh things are not going well there's going to be a lot of
7:44
pressure on Kim Jong-un in terms of coming through with uh needed food
7:50
health care supplies that kind of thing uh as I mentioned it's difficult for non- Koreans it's been difficult for
7:57
non- Koreans for the last three or four years uh we're at a point now where there may
8:02
be a possibility for humanitarian workers who go in and out of Korea and
8:07
have done that in the past uh to return and we may get a better idea of what's
8:12
going on and how things are going there uh North Korea is very confident right now because they've had a just worked
8:18
out a deal with Russia they're providing uh military equipment uh for Russia's
8:23
efforts in Ukraine uh and the relationship there seems to be particular good same time
8:30
they've had Fairly positive uh relations with China things seem to be going well
8:37
in in that area so it's the kind of time when Kim Jong-un is likely to be fairly assertive
8:45
he needs to do that in terms of focusing domestic attention away from lack of food to fighting the challenge abroad
8:52
and this is we may be on the on the cusp of of facing some difficulties because
8:58
of the internal situ situation in North Korea I'd say it's going to be an interesting time and it's going to be a
9:03
difficult time so so Bob let me tease you out just a little bit on this uh the
Difficulties in North Korea
9:09
your last point that you made in terms of interesting and difficult times internally can you uh spend a little
9:15
time on that point that you alluded to in your opening intervention you know it's hard to tell
9:21
what's going on inside North Korea we don't have you know it used to be when we were doing sovietology and uh looking
9:28
at who's go up and who's down in the poet Bureau and what this means when somebody sneezes in a public place uh we
9:37
can't do that in Korea the way we used to do we've tried to do we work very closely with the South Koreans who are
9:43
probably more into the nuances of what's going on in North Korea the relationship
9:48
with South Korea I think is has improved with the change in in South Korea with
9:56
the Improvement in uh relations between South Korea and Japan uh with greater
10:01
effort and focus being uh put on on South Korea South Korea will uh be u a
10:08
member of the UN Security Council come January and serve there for another two-year term uh so it's it's the kind
10:15
of situation where uh we're looking for some interesting
10:21
things to be taking place and how they're going to work out it's hard to tell and what's going on elsewhere in
10:28
the world it's going to make it even more complicated all right excellent stuff let me tease out two last
Human Rights in South Korea
10:33
questions for you one I uh mentioned earlier and you have touched on it but let me again draw you out where does
10:40
this issue feat the human rights issue because I want to get into later on in
10:46
the show about the humanitarian situation you know they're inextricably linked but but I want to I sort of on
10:52
the human rights issue per se uh where does this feature in the US South Korea
10:57
bilateral relationship ship at present quite frankly we're probably uh
11:03
in a much uh closer uh relationship with South Korea on the human rights issues
11:09
than we've been in the past four or five years uh South Korea has a presidency
11:16
and an Administration that is more focused on the human rights issue more focused on the problems in North Korea
11:23
they've appointed a a special uh Ambassador for North Korean human rights issues
11:29
uh they've been very welcoming to the uh newly appointed uh UN Human Rights uh
11:36
Rob pure so it's it's the kind of situation that I think uh we're going to see more
11:43
on human rights because of the changes that have taken place and the shifts politically in in South
What is happening on the multilateral front
11:50
Korea okay great stuff there and then let me come to the the final question
11:55
again it's been in embedded in some of your comments ments out of the gate uh
12:00
the multilateral piece um and I would just hearken back a bit to when when you were uh in the the role of a special
12:08
Envoy uh you had the Kirby report you had a lot of action at the UN you had I
12:13
believe the UN opening an office in Soul uh on on this topic you also had
12:19
domestically I think that spurred some action in South Korea to I believe u
12:25
unlock uh and ultimately pass a long stall human rights law in South Korea as
12:31
well right so the two go hand inand so that brings me to the last point on the
12:36
multilateral front what is happening on this bucket of issues part of the problem on the on the
12:45
UN issues is that in the past when we've been dealing with uh South with North
12:51
Korea we've had support of the South Korean government we've also had in the UN support from the Soviet from Russia
13:00
and uh from China uh our sanctions against North Korea have come from the
13:05
security Council they've been moderated a bit from what we initially proposed but the China and Russia have supported
13:14
sanctions on North Korea uh we're now in a situation where that's going to be interesting to see if we're going to be
13:20
able to continue that uh un sanctions and the cooperation on at least the
13:26
security issues uh with Russian China uh based on what's going on with Russia
13:32
what we've seen the meeting between Putin and Kim Jong-un uh with the increasing friction with China my guess
13:41
is we're in for a very tough time uh in the security Council in terms of
13:46
international cooperation and dealing with North Korea I don't think the uh the Russians and the Chinese are
13:52
terribly anxious to see a a very forceful uh Korea because it might draw
13:58
them into the issues they don't want to be drawn into but they're not going to be as supportive of our efforts to uh to
14:05
put pressure on North Korea on these uh nuclear and and related issues and I
14:12
think that this is going to make it even more complicated in terms of dealing with h with South Korea I with North
14:18
Korea and and in in terms of dealing with these kind of problems the humanitarian issues which is also one of
14:25
the main things the UN focuses on are going to be a more difficult uh problem
14:32
South Korea uh has uh has been supportive of efforts to deal with
14:39
humanitarian issues and I think we'll have cooperation there and with the Japanese the problem on on humanitarian
14:47
issues is that North Korea wants aid but no monitoring and the UN and us and most
14:54
other countries require monitoring of of humanitarian Aid being distributed and
14:59
how it's being used and who's being benefited and the North Koreans are
15:05
absolutely adamant and opposed to that so deteriorating conditions inside North
15:11
Korea in terms of food and other things uh increasing problems uh the
15:18
un uh the UN instability that we find and
15:23
politically I think we're going to have a tough road ahead in dealing with North Korea and I think think there are going
15:29
to be some tricky issues we're going to have to deal with gotcha Bob great stuff there and
Does the polarization at the Security Council affect the work of the Human Rights Council
15:34
let me just one final get off the stage followup to what you said on the humanitarian issues um does the I would
15:43
say I don't want to say gridlock but the increasing polarization of the the great
15:49
Powers at the security Council uh China Russia on one side us on the other South
15:54
Korea obviously has has a seat as you alluded to uh for the next next two years does that adversely impact uh the
16:03
work of say the the um Human Rights Council the the human rights committee sorry uh number one number two some of
16:11
these other organizations in terms of um UNICEF the the the classic un agencies
16:18
that try to operate in and around North Korea you alluded to the monitoring piece what about just the overall will
16:26
resource availability interest in uh those those topics as well depending
16:32
on what kind of humanitarian assistance is involved the North Koreans have been less than H than responsive in terms of
16:39
that uh North Korea refused any un assistance on uh vaccines for Co for
16:46
example uh the North Koreans are anxious to have help but they are very very
16:53
cautious about what they want and and what they're going to do I I don't see things moving ahead smoothly with North
17:00
Korea and as the food problem becomes an increasing difficulty uh I can see some
17:08
some potential internal problems uh un uh presence in North Korea is pretty
17:15
much zero now un agents uh officials have left uh because of the co thing but
17:21
I think we're going to have other uh other issues that are going to come up and and unless there are some changes or
17:26
unless something shifts uh not going to be a good scene okay outstanding Bob off and
How does the absence of an Envoy contribute to this range of issues
17:34
running really really uh fantastic work here out of the gates first I would say I can tell you're an old radio free
17:40
Europe guy because I heard the word Soviet Union twice in your interventions so we're just very very pleased with
17:47
that age you know you go back further well it's it's it's how it's you're
17:53
you're a product of your your young professional life there so there you go ah it's awesome the other problem though
17:58
is that Russia is increasingly acting like the Soviet and that may be why it's
18:03
happening it's it's it's all coming full circle all right excellent all right thanks Ambassador King great stuff
18:09
Victor over to you and then I'm gonna come to sue because I want to kind of put a bow on this first round with Sue
18:15
and her film too so I want to get to Victor first uh Victor your thoughts just take this anywhere you you want I'm
18:21
I'm particularly interested in something you've talked about before on this show within the bilateral relationship uh the
18:28
us being a bit sluggish to get its house in order uh how does that contribute uh
18:34
to these this range of issues that we discussed with a master king um well certainly um as everybody
18:43
knows um policy is people and people are policy and for a good period of time we
18:49
didn't have Bob King's successor I mean for how many years we're talking about
18:55
seven years or eight years we did not have B Bob King's successor um and just
19:01
for the viewers an example of people being policy is the absence of an Envoy I mean I mean Victor it is he is
19:07
irreplaceable so that's I mean that could contribute to the none of us are irreplaceable all
19:14
right I'm just all right but I mean but it's we like the Trump Administration never appointed an Envoy the Biden
19:21
Administration up until recently did not appoint one and finally confirmed one um
19:26
and the absence of people like this matter is you know they are Point people in the US government on the issue they
19:32
they can cut across and ride above the inter agency bureaucracy um and when these people are
19:38
not there things happen like the removal of the North Korean human rights issue from the UN Security Council agenda um
19:46
that this happened a few years ago in the previous administration when we didn't have a un Ambassador in New York
19:52
who was focused on the issue and we didn't have an Envoy right um now we have I think three very important people
19:59
Dr Dr salon at the un uh Julie Turner at State and shinai and Korea um three very
20:08
Dynamic women that I think are going to try to move uh move things forward so so I think the US is catching up now and um
20:15
and sort of back on track I think Turner already made her first trip to Korea I think um last and so and as Bob said
20:24
this is a Administration so that's much more on the same wavelength when it comes to North Korean human rights
20:30
issues that's very important uh because our alliance is always a priority and if
20:35
our Ally doesn't want to raise en Force these issues it makes it very difficult from an alliance politics perspective
20:42
the second thing I'll say um I was I I spoke with Joseph Kim and um um soan Lee
20:50
at a conference yesterday renewing Dem democ the renewing democracy initiative and we talked about the role that China
20:56
and Russia are playing in transnational repression of North Koreans through
21:01
their harboring of slave labor 30,000 North Koreans are in China and 30,000
21:08
are in Russia um uh they they were put in very difficult situations after the
21:14
CID lockdown in North Korea where their work visas expired and they could not go
21:19
back to North Korea and they did not have work authorization in these countries and they were trafficked you
21:24
know they were very vulnerable people at that point um China and Russia are trading like crazy with North Korea
21:31
right now in violation of un sanctions uh and that means buying things like coal and copper which are excavated you
21:38
know through uh you know lots of Human Rights abuses um and then of course
21:44
China recently is now we understand is now sending back more North Koreans uh to back to North Korea ones that come
21:50
over the Border either to try to escape or to try to find work they're being sent back and then they're you know
21:56
terribly treated when they when they go back so um so um you know I think the
22:01
United States and South Korea are now on the same page but at the same time China and Russia are really helping to
22:08
facilitate a worsening of the North Korean human rights situation all right outstanding Victor let me let me you
What should the alliance focus on in this broader environment
22:15
really LED right to the question that I wanted to ask which is you've got on the one hand this I would say
22:22
deteriorating environment in terms of North Korean human rights right just a
22:27
lot of issues that you just spelled out there on the international scene at the same time bit of a sliver of good news
22:33
in that we finally have the internal pieces aligned on the US R relationship
22:40
to start driving forward what would you recommend the alliance focus on in this
22:47
basket of issues in this broader environment to try to start riding the ship turning things around Andor making
22:55
progress on some of these really important ISS issue sets well I think each of them have to
23:01
each of them have homework at home right and so in South Korea that is the I
23:08
would this is not proper English but the d d the D oh it is proper English the
23:15
decriminalization of uh NGO groups that are wanting to send information into North Korea right this was something
23:21
that the previous administration had done and that needs to be rolled back uh refunding of these uh NOS as well there
23:29
used to be Government funding for these NOS that was pulled back and that should be restarted on the US side as um Bob
23:36
knows well um there is a um I think Amy Bara introduced a motion to reauthorize
23:43
the North Korean Human Rights Act um that was originally signed into law by
23:48
President George W bush it was reauthorized under President Obama and
23:54
um it is it it needs to be reauthorized it hasn't been I don't know what the latest is but Bob my understanding is
24:00
that there hasn't been any movement on this Bob actually wrote something about this for us at csis um last month so
24:08
those are two things for sure in terms of homework at home I think there's a real opportunity with Japan also the
24:15
Camp David Summit uh actually was um important in the sense that Japan sort
24:21
of equated its abductees issue with broader North Korean human rights abuses issues um and South Korean abduct abduct
24:29
so there there's kind of a common platform there now and of course in the UN there needs to be a lot more work
24:35
done it may not we may not be able to work through the unhcr anymore because China has given a lot of money to the
24:42
unhcr and they they they haven't been on the border in between North Korean and China I think since
24:49
1999 I think B if that's correct so um it may be other through other groupings
24:55
the um Office of the High Commissioner for for human rights or um I mean the
25:01
Human Rights Council also is very very much dominated by China now so um it may
25:06
have to be through these other groupings like the G7 plus and the NATO ap4 uh to try to
25:13
raise more awareness about the issue uh which of course um uh this new movie
25:20
will be able to do all right outstanding Victor uh I I sense a segue um but uh
The importance of playing in the UN
25:27
and but before you uh get off the the stage here you know you you underscored a really interesting point
25:34
on the on the international scene that I wanted to get to which is the UN is not the UN that we are all sort of familiar
25:42
to deal dealing with on North Korean human rights 10 15 years ago right it is
25:49
now there the Chinese have very much exerted their influence on the mul a highlights the importance of playing in
25:55
the UN because when you have issues that you really want to highlight on a multilateral sense there is no other
26:02
organization like it despite its many many um suboptimal characteristics let
26:08
me put it that way uh and so is there a larger play in which the North Korean
26:14
human rights piece folds into a broader effort multilaterally within uh the uh
26:20
the administration and the administration in Soul given especially given the South Korean uh Security
26:28
Council seat uh for the next two years yeah I mean I even though South
26:33
Korea holds the seat as you know without Chinese and Russian cooperation there's not a whole lot that can be done they
26:40
you were able to gerrymander um some of these meetings that involved testimony by North Korean escapes outside of the
26:47
UN Security Council that then China to triy to shut down they tried to physically shut it down um so I think
26:53
it's going to be difficult I think I think the alternative is again multilateral coordination not authorized
27:01
by a un mandate but multilateral coordination of things like secondary sanctions on Chinese and Russian
27:08
companies that are U that are uh importing or purchasing things that come
27:14
out of that come through China and out of the North Korean uh uh out of North
27:19
Korea through um because of Human Rights abuses along the along the production chain um I think I think things like
27:26
that are important in us uh we can enforce kataa uh with with um
27:32
particularly with regard to North Kore we do it with regard to Shin Jang but that basically presumes that anything
27:37
coming out of North Korea um is a violation of human rights in terms of anything like anything coming out North
27:44
Korea is a violation of Human Rights um so I think things like that on the sanctioning side are important but I
27:51
think we need there needs still to be a lot more done on the on the awareness side I mean there was a period of time
27:58
when you know we had this ground swell because President Bush was meeting with escapes as you mentioned the Kirby
28:04
report um there was a there was a moment where there was a lot going on this is when Bob was Bob was in the job um but
28:11
it's really fallen off the radar screen um and we need to sort of bring it back on the 10 year anniversary of the
28:18
commission of inquiry and I think Beyond Utopia certainly one of the ways to do that all right excellent now the segue
28:24
is active and live all right Sue over to you apologies for making you wait for so long but we wanted to set up Beyond
28:30
Utopia number one and number two dovetail this also dovet tales with a lot of issues you have raised uh in and
28:37
around not just the human rights issues but North Korea at large I'm just going to go through them quickly just three
28:43
things first of all the importance of this film in terms of highlighting the situation as Victor uh mentioned second
28:50
the overall situation in terms of the deteriorating um human rights conditions
28:55
both inside North Koreans and North Koreans outside of North Korea right as they're are being trafficked or
29:01
transiting or trying to get to a third country uh you know through China and
29:07
third the point that you have made I think artfully and perhaps most early on this show that the issue around the
29:15
divided Security Council uh and all of the minations and follow not just on the nuclear program but here in Stark color
29:23
uh Stark relief the human rights situation also in play as as well as a humanitarian situation so the floor is
29:29
yours and please take it any way you want I'll take your three points that you mentioned so first on the film um
29:37
this film you know you just the viewers have just heard this whole conversation this discussion this film puts a human
29:45
face to all of this conversation right um because really it depits uh the
29:50
length that North Koreans will go through with this help of this one Pastor um and other human rights
29:56
activists but people people like Pastor Kim um to flee their country and you
30:02
know and what happens right there there and we we pick up where the film literally picks up from this uh family
30:09
the family this Ro family a family of five including a 80 something year old grandmother and two little girls at the
30:16
time age of five and 10 um now they're nine and 14 but when they were film this
30:21
is right preco they they they flee North Korea because of killed by association
30:28
because This Woman's brother and sister have defected to South Korea and they hear that their family is going to be in
30:34
danger so this family of five without carrying anything but Sinai pills
30:39
because if they're captured they just want to you know basically kill themselves you know they flee and when
30:45
they arrive in China after hiking through a mountain they they they find
30:51
this pastor Kim's Network and our film picks them up right as they arrive and
30:57
is seeking help and documents the entire Journey um so again you know we can talk
31:04
about what happens to be know and the danger really begins when they're in China so it's not just even fleeing North Korea but China because of Chinese
31:11
policy of repatriating back them back to North Korea knowing exactly what's going
31:17
to happen to North Korea because of this very inhuman policy it's extremely dangerous and we document the entire
31:24
Journey um so we have the whole footage and that I think it's kind of remarkable because we have not seen anything like
31:30
that we we feel tension in the film because we we we go through this journey with them as they track through the
31:37
mountains the jungle Andross the mikong River from North Korea to LA to um to
31:43
Vietnam to LA and to Thailand and so on and then we also follow a story of soan
31:50
this mother who's already made it to South Korea but she's so desperate to get her son out her 17-year-old son out
31:57
of North Korea and it's not um necessarily a happy story but the point
32:03
is I think this puts a human face to everything they were talking about and and I you know I thank Victor and csis
32:10
for hosting and the DC screening but it's very powerful and very emotional so I encourage everybody to watch that
32:17
secondly Mark your point about overall situation it has become so much worse um
32:23
since Co it was already bad and it's now even worse uh if the pandemic has really
32:29
you know it's it was such a significant and terrible thing for everybody but for North Koreans and particularly for North
32:35
Koreans who are trying to flee North Korea it has become worse because all of that underground um railroad or the
32:43
network has been destroyed so first of all it has become much more costly like it used to cost $3,000 to save in North
32:50
Korean uh but now is exponentially more expensive some $20,000 to save someone
32:55
because they have to rebuild everything and as Victor mentioned the Chinese policy they have recently sent back 600
33:03
North Koreans that were detained you know preco they just want and they have another 2,000 some 2,000 people North
33:10
Koreans that are sitting um in Chinese prisons and one of the we just found out
33:15
you know one of the guys um in our film uh the brother who was in South Korea who brought the RO family out his wife
33:22
was one of the ones that were just repatriate or sent back to North Korea so this Chinese policy is just really
33:29
something that we need to highlight you and the third point that you were just talking about the United The Divided
33:35
United Nations security Council I mean you know Bob King said the environment
33:41
is not good right now because China and Russia is not going to really help uh they have not been helping they have not
33:48
been implementing sanctions they have not been helping I would say since the collapse of the Hanoi Summit but
33:54
Ambassador King is absolutely right now the situation has has gotten even worse um so you know we are at a completely at
34:01
impass whether it's we're talking about nuclear issue or or or human rights issue just because UNC honestly it's not
34:09
something that we can you know count on um so I hate to leave it there but it's
34:17
I you know that's the situation so in terms of policy you know every I agree with everything that Victor talked about
34:24
but employing voices is number one I think we need to really collectively continue to keep up the pressure amplify
34:31
our voices um and press for accountability uh for human rights
34:37
abusers not only with the Kim regime but like Chinese government um and then you
34:43
know we'll see you know I am grateful that for people like you know we have now you know we have uh Julie Turner in
34:49
place and Elizabeth Salman and and shiman Lee and all that um but I do
34:54
think we need to continue to um Step Up in terms of our you know just pressuring
34:59
everybody on human rights issues and then also um I don't know if was
35:05
Ambassador King that made a point at this point or Victor but um that includes also additional sanctions on
35:11
Chinese Russian entities or any others uh who employ you know um uh either
35:17
North Korean laborers or who anybody who is involved in human rights violations I would say okay thanks to good stuff
What to do
35:24
there um lots lots unpack let me just stay on one thread and bring it over to Bob for his comments on that follow both
35:33
Victor and your comments in terms of what to do uh we've heard from Victor we've heard from you Bob what do you
35:40
think is high on the agenda both bilaterally you to use Victor's term the
35:45
the homework issues that we need to do either domestically Andor within the bilateral alliance between the United
35:52
States and South Korea and then also the multilateral piece uh that Sue I think
35:57
talked a lot about in terms of being um you know the issues in terms of being paralyzed but yet some opportunities to
36:05
at least perhaps shine a light and regain some of the momentum as Victor
36:10
alluded to that we had in and around the the Kirby report and all of that Bob the floor is yours let let me make one
Comments on Beyond Utopia
36:17
comment first about this incredible film this is an extremely well done film uh
36:23
I've been dealing with North Korean refugees for uh longer than I'd like to admit and you know intellectually I
36:31
understand what's going on I've met with refugees in uh Hanan and and other
36:36
places in South Korea but this has an immediacy and an
36:42
impact because you're seeing these people as they're trying to leave and
36:48
the difficulties they face and what they have to go through to get out of of North Korea and then to get across China
36:56
and and finally make it so that they can resettle in in South Korea it's
37:01
extremely well done uh I'm amazed that you were able to get the video that you
37:07
have of these people as these events are happening uh I can't say enough good
37:13
about how impactful that film was uh in terms of what do we do
37:20
uh part of the problem is there's you know there's no magic button you push and something changes
37:27
uh the world has changed but what we have to do and what we have available to do it really hasn't and I think in terms
37:35
of dealing with the North Korea human rights issues it's not finding something new or doing something new it's
37:42
continuing to do what we've been trying to do and see if there are new ways of doing it we need to continue to press
37:48
North Korea in the UN we need to make sure that that those un points of
37:55
pressure are Contin continually applied uh we've got a good relationship we've been able to do a lot of very good
38:01
things in the UN Security Council to raise the level of that we've had discussions and and that needs to
38:08
continue we can't slack off we've got to continue those efforts the other thing
38:13
we need to do is we need to see if there aren't ways that we can find
38:19
Opportunities foros particularly in the United States but other countries as well who want to
38:25
go into North Korea and have skills and resources limited though they are to
38:32
make a difference for North Koreans there we need to work out ways that these NOS are able to go to North Korea
38:41
and able to have an impact in terms of dealing with the issue there we also need to continue to press both uh China
38:49
and Russia in terms of what they are doing to contribute to North Korea by
38:55
employing North Koreans in in under poor circumstances and situations it's not
39:01
just North Korea that's creating the problem it's Russia that's enabling them and it's particularly China that enables
39:08
them with the way they're doing we've got to continue to do what we've been doing we've got to do it with more
39:13
emphasis and we've got to find more allies to work with all right outstanding Bob Sue I seeting so Sue
Comments on the Underground Railroad
39:20
back to you for comment number one number two anything you might add in terms of what the film FM highlighted in
39:28
terms of things that we might do from a
39:34
policy or humanitarian standpoint that we had not thought about before I I was struck by your your comments that you
39:41
know I hadn't thought a whole lot about in terms of reconstituting the Underground Railroad uh as it were you
39:47
know um so thoughts there Sue yes I mean it took 50 Brokers to get
39:55
this Ro family out so just imagine the What It Takes and again the film
40:02
documents I mean we might you know we didn't know I mean as filmmakers whether
40:07
there would be a film because they could have been captured at any moment they could have been sent back or you know U
40:12
so it was just a big risk we took but it it's it takes enormous network of people
40:19
and then you also see not every broker like we have people like Pastor Kim who
40:24
genuinely wants to do good and he's motivated by his faith and so on to get people out but then there are brokers
40:31
who are in it for money right um so there's a scene that's very haunting scene in the film where Brokers take
40:37
this family up you know up and down in the same route or back and forth in the same you know they're stuck in this mountain on and they want more money you
40:45
know and there's some there's a scene like that so this is the reality of it but helping Nos and you know in play
40:53
like like Caleb mission that Pastor kid runs or Liberty in North Korea there are other organizations that do great work
41:00
and trying to so helping these organizations and reconstituting I mean that that's hugely helpful second point
41:07
about the Chinese government knowing what's going on in China if Chinese government policy just changes and allow
41:14
these people to go go to Korea they don't have to risk their lives and go through all of this this is why I say
41:20
pressuring the Chinese government continuously I think is a very very important thing third point you know
41:25
there's a mother uh character participant in in the film so
41:32
on and her son unfortunately is sitting in a prison camp you know we talk about 120,000 people in political prison camps
41:39
you see one story one one mother trying to take one son out and you know it
41:45
really resonates with people because you don't have to think about what is political prison C what what what does
41:51
it mean there's 120,000 people there because they know that this is somebody like this child child that's sitting in
41:57
there right now um so again you know that's my plug I would say the last
42:03
thing um there the movie actually is theatrically released again tomorrow for
42:08
one week starting tomorrow in select theater so anybody who is in Virginia
42:14
California um Chicago Boston New York New Jersey area are able to see it so
42:20
please check it out and see the film all right thanks so good stuff there I got
Comment
42:26
it go ahead can I make a quick comment of course come on in and then I'm going to Victor for final word because it's
42:32
his show he owns the place the the one thing we haven't talked about is the number of North Koreans who are making
42:39
it out of North Korea and what has happened uh at its peak in 2011 we were
42:46
getting over 2,000 were reaching South Korea going through China and making it
42:53
around this year we had have a a slight uptick from what we've had over the last
42:59
couple of years first nine months of this year 136 North Koreans have reached South
43:06
Korea these numbers are disas we're 5% of what we've had at Peak this this is
43:13
far far less than what we should have and this is something we need to do is
43:18
is provide greater opportunity for these people to get out I'm through no no
Closing Comments
43:24
that's a great intervention also you know we're out of time but it also begs the question of then the reintegration
43:30
piece into South Korea right which is a another topic uh which is of great
43:36
interest and important as well no no time here but I think it dovet Tales well really interesting great point on the numbers Bob all right Victor final
43:43
word to you and maybe I could ask one question then obviously you'll take it you'll you'll you'll take it anywhere
43:49
anywhere you want um this Administration for you know you can argue if whether or
43:55
not they policy outcomes are you know effective and all of that but one thing
44:00
I think there is General support for this Administration is pretty good at hosting events right State visits
44:06
there's a lot of Pomp and Circumstance right you've got trilateral at count David you've got ipf you've got Aus
44:13
you've got the quad you know they're pretty good at these what I would call you know big Summit kind of leader
44:19
meetings with a lot of flare and drama right and you know again we can debate
44:25
the policy outcome but that I think there is widespread support for we've talked a lot about the importance of
44:32
highlighting this issue is and then you also Victor have talked about maybe the need to go off and perhaps do this in a
44:38
in another grouping outside the UN is there space for a highlevel meeting of
44:44
like-minded countries around this issue I mean I would just say sitting here thinking through there's a a media
44:49
agenda to go through um but I just wanted your thoughts on that and then closing comments Victor you own the
44:54
place the floor is yours um so three things right what in terms of what we can do new the so the first
45:02
um is um I I think afo your last statement uh you know I think uh like
45:10
this is a movie that President Biden should see right I mean if there's anybody who can
45:16
empathize with with um you know he is the great empathizer I mean come on like
45:22
so he should you know he should really see if he saw this movie I mean like overnight it would change sort of the
45:28
the the global Dialogue on North K just like you know when President Bush read the book by Kong chal Juan aquarians of
45:35
Pyongyang and then he started talking about it when he when he met with G7 leaders right he talked about with
45:40
koizumi he talked about it with Blair he talked about it with Merkel right that you know that I mean I actually I'll just tell you quickly Victor I actually
45:47
went out and bought the book after that and read it so I mean to your point so yeah sorry didn't mean okay and then if
45:53
President Biden doesn't have time president Obama should watch it right President Obama is like the trend Setter
45:59
like he would motivate an entire generation of young people to go and see this thing so that's the first thing
46:05
second thing is as as you know all the most important thing that's happening in terms of social change in North Korea
46:10
are the markets it's hard from a policy side to do much to promote the markets
46:15
um but uh but I think the one thing that we we should do and we must there must be a way of doing this is getting the
46:22
getting uh the internet into North Korea the worldwide web into North Korea I mean you know you now you're you're
46:28
now like this emerging Tech guy I mean there must be a way of doing that there you know there must be a way for
46:34
companies to do that and you know and many of these companies were worried about business in China they're not worried about business in China anymore
46:40
right many of them right same um um that's the second thing um and then the
46:47
third thing is really go see this film I mean uh what to what is most powerful to me is the documenting of their actual
46:55
effort and they show you like a map of how they're trying to get out and going through like what they went through to
47:01
get out like you see them you know in the jungle at night like hungry sweating
47:07
like crazy like it's just it's amazing it's like a incredible human story and
47:12
as Sue said it puts a face on this this has been a nameless and faceless problem for decades it's just been statistics
47:19
and and so now we have real stories that matter so all right outstanding Victor
Outro
47:25
any comment on a high level multilateral grouping you you wiggled off the hook there I can't let you go on that one for
47:32
that yeah I think that I think that's important but there needs to be something that sort of drives that and
47:37
motivates that and so I think um yeah the film like because I don't see anything happening on the policy side
47:44
that's going to do that I mean everybody's agenda is so full with Gaza with you know with with with um with
47:51
what's happening in Ukraine the other thing I'll say and I know this is extremely radical um and probably
47:58
shouldn't say it is that you know I don't know if there's some way to um
48:03
Engage The North Koreans to get them to stop sending weapons and Munitions uh to to Russia for the war in Ukraine um not
48:11
that's not directly related to Human Rights but it's a way to start a dialogue because um we can sanction them
48:18
but at the same time we need to have a dialogue with them on this issue as Bob tried so hard to do when he was in the
48:24
seat doing this all right outstanding we're going to leave it there all I all I will say is
48:29
anytime you say I shouldn't say it I'm about to say something radical I I am by contract forced to send John Hamry a
48:36
text so just so you know I'm joking um outstanding work look uh thanks
48:42
everybody you can tell from uh the fact that we went a little over the fact that we're still getting into issues uh and
48:49
the fact that this has been such a rich dialogue uh on a critically important topic this is really really really great
48:57
stuff and a great episode so thank you to everybody Ambassador King thank you uhing we've got to have you back soon
49:04
and do another uh piece on this because it was I think we just um even though
49:09
we've done a couple of episodes I think we've gone deeper further uh and really
49:15
I think put forward a lot of thought leadership on this really critical topic
49:20
so thank you for that Sue thanks for the the the um analysis of course but also
49:26
for highlighting again this film Beyond Utopia one week uh sneak Premiere I
49:32
guess you put it sorry it's not in the Twin Cities um what's going on there I thought I had some juice with you but I
49:38
guess not uh so but uh looking forward to seeing it I know everybody did and thanks for also those of us who are in
49:45
Washington the uh the CSI is screening as well so well done there and Sue thanks again and last but not least
49:50
Victor uh excellent comments sorry about your Giants but Hope Springs Eternal and
49:56
uh again a great episode I'm going to leave it there and just say look kbo uh playoffs uh ongoing KT whz battled back
50:04
today staved off elimination from the NC dinos it's two to one uh KT whiz uh shut
50:11
out the dyos today so the semifinal series is still alive and going and LG
50:16
waiting in the wings ducon got knocked out but pretty good year for Ducan all right see everybody in two weeks thanks for a great episode outstanding work see
50:24
you [Music]
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